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 Crush, Dustshoot and indications

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Al-Bhed
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PostSubject: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:07 am

In this format we see more and more play on trap dustshoot and mind crush. However both cards, in their own ways are problematic as far as the conduct of the game is concerned because they keep bringing up ruling and rule issues, most notably Mind Crush, with many players being misinformed or having misconceptions. Of course there are no stupid cards, only stupid people, and for everyone to be on the smart side here I am going to explain some issues. First of all let's start with dustshoot.

Trap Dustshoot

Issue 1
I'll start with a basic rule. Trap Dustshoot, as its text suggests, needs the opponent to have at least 4 cards in hand to ACTIVATE, not to resolve, so if before it resolves the opponent has less cards in hand for some reason, it resolves properly. So if you have 4 cards in hand, the opponent activates Trap Dustshoot and you chain your in hand Mystical Space Typhoon so that it will leave your hand and at resolution you will have only 3 cards in hand, Trap Dustshoot will still resolve normally, your opponent will select a monster in your hand and it will return to the deck. So long as the activation condition was met at activation with you having 4 cards, and you have at least 1 card in hand at resolution, Trap Dustshoot will resolve.

Issue 2
I'll continue with analyzing an issue that came up yesterday, although it is one I saw solved a while ago, and it will take a while as it is a sensitive one. You will usually activate Trap Dustshoot first thing in the opponent's turn if he is at 4+ cards. However when you take priority into consideration that does bring up an issue. During the start of any phase or step the turn player has priority to perform any legal action of that phase or step, the opponent cannot perform any action unless priority is passed by the turn player or the turn player activates an effect that uses the chain. The first phase of the player's turn is the draw phase, and naturally the only thing he can do with that priority he gets first thing in the turn after drawing is to activate a spell speed 2 or higher effect. Naturally most player will do another play in their turn instead of using their chainables first thing so they'll pass priority to enter their standby phase and eventually their main phase, and at the first moment they do pass priority to end the draw phase he opponent uses his trap dustshoot. Usually the Dustshoot is activated immidiatelly as it is expected that the opponent will naturally pass priority.

Still, if you read a Dustshoot you have the right to use your priority to avoid it. You may ask how? Will you activate a Trap that lets you discard as a cost? Remember that even if your hand size changes as part of the effect because Trap Dustshoot is chained it doesnt care, it is 4 at activation and resolves normally. Surely spell speed 2 cards that have you discard as a cost are rare, and its even rarer to activate them first thing in the turn. So how can that opportunity be used? The answer is Quick Play Spell cards. It doesnt matter if they discard, it doesnt matter if they manipulate your hand size, what matters is they can be used from the hand and they are spell speed 2. That means that simply by activating them they are placed on the field, they are no longer in your hand and they have reduced your hand size. Notable cards that have that function are Book of Moon, Mystical Space Typhoon, and then forbidden lance, gemini spark and super polymerization among others. Of course when that matters the most is when you draw into your 4th card (4th or 5th in case of Super Poly), you can immidiately activate one of them and make Trap Dustshoot unable to be activated.

That too however brings up another issue. As you know using priority and passing it is not clear in real play, usually the opponent activates Dustshoot first thing and then override your priority. Therefore the turn player after seeing Dustshoot may use it as an excuse to say he never passed priority, return dustshoot face down and activate a quick play spell from his hand to fix the issue. At the same time the turn player may have had the initial intend of using said quick play spell card and the opponent did jump the gun, robbing him of his right to use the quick play and making him seem like he is trying to ruleshark in the end. Let me say that rule-wise the penalty for the first case, if the player is caught, is disqualification by konami tournament policy as he has the intend to cheat. In the second case it varies from a warning to any penalty that is deemed neccessary to amend the gamestate after the opponent took the turn player's priority. No matter what the one who broke the rules or is trying to abuse them is in the wrong , that is something to remember. At the same time I'll say a proper investigation can usually give enough clues to the judge to tell what the case is, dont assume the judge is an idiot, once we solve the question of intend it becomes clear who is in the wrong. All you have to do is extract whether the turn player had the intend to use the card and that is very possible to extract, trust me, we all play yugioh and we know what we'd do in each situation. As a sidenote usually I'd assume every player is using his rights the best way possible unless hinted otherwise when judging a situation, so some things may be missed but it will only mean amending stupidity and returning gamestate to the most proper way even if it fails.

But there is another side to it. What is written above is in the case you definitelly read a Trap Dustshoot with 4 cards in hand and had a quick play spell you wouldnt normally use, like a super poly on a sangan, or book of moon on a trooper or something like that. The situation I came across yesterday is a perfect example of that. It is the case of something you'd do first thing in your turn, or among the first things, anyways. That example is the turn player having MST while the opponent has set s/t (2 of them in that case). As far as this case is concerned intent barely matters if there is not a better action to take in that turn first thing other than the mst. Let me explain what I mean. You start your turn and have priority to respond to your own draw with a spell speed 2 or higher effect. In most cases it is implied you'd pass to get in your main phase because your first action in the turn would be activating a normal spell/summoning or setting a monster/setting a s/t etc. In this example however your opponent has backrows, as an intelligent player you'd want them out of your way before doing any other player, so your first move of the turn would be Mystical Space Typhoon. However Mystical Space Typhoon is a spell speed 2 card and can be activated first thing in your turn. Therefore the issue here and in any other similar case where you have a spell speed 2 or higher card to activate first is. There is absolutely no reason for you to pass your right to activate your card first, and if nothing hints you are passing priority, there is no reason to assume you passed priority. You have the right to activate something and no reason to pass it, in this case it is judged that you simply retain said right. Let me put it in another way. If priority didnt work like that and we had a "Priority Button" instead, which we would have to press after every conceivable action to pass priority, would you have any reason to press that button when you have the right to activate your card first? Of course not in this case, therefore priority was never passed, and the right way to judge this would be in favour of the turn player, unless it is clearly proven he did not have the intend, as even in the off chance that he did not have it, there is again no reason to do otherwise.

Mind Crush

Issue 1
Very first in analyzing Mind Crush issues comes basic rules, first of which is the issue I had by accident in the second, invalid game, of the championship match. You cannot activate Mind Crush with no cards in hand, you have to have at least one card in hand so you can discard in case you are wrong (even if you know for sure the card is in the other player's hand because of another gameplay rule). Second of basic rules of calling cards is that you cannot call a card that does not exist or in other words accept the call of a card unless it is clear for both players that this is the card the controller is talking about. So unless my opponent somehow knows what card I mean when I call "purple muffin" and we both think of the same card, you dont proceed to resolve until it's clear.

Issue 2
The second is the issue which in my opinion comes up the most. You don't have to call the exact name with mind crush. If you understand which card the opponent is talking about and demand the exact name or no call then you are in the wrong since obviously you are trying to abuse the rules (and rule that dont exist nontheless) to your advantage, you are rulesharking and it may be considered that you are even cheating. Remember that every time you try to abuse the rules to gain unfair advantage you are in the wrong, rules are there to help the proper process of the game, not help you gain more. Calling the card is valid so long as both players are clear to which card is implied. If I say "that fairy that needs 4 fairies in grave to summon and doesnt let me special" you obviously get I am talking about kristya (you'd be playing a fairy deck in that case so you have no excuse), if I say Coelacanth and you say there is no such card expecting the full name then obviously you are trying to rule shark and if the opponent calls "that karakuri ninja", yes it might not be obvious which one he is talking about, but if you dont understand or are not sure you are both on the same page, you have to ask him to make clear which one card is he talking about by asking for further description, and when he says "the one that special summons from the grave" you are good to go knowing he means kuick.

Issue 3
The third is cards you were not supposed to know. That applies mostly to real life I guess when the opponent is handling his cards badly revealing to you information even if you didnt want to get it. Nothing states you have to somehow get a confirmation that your call with mind crush is correct or be hinted that it is by the gamestate. If someone mst's your mind crush you might want to make a random call based on the flow of the game, the public information cards up to now, how many copies of certain cards should there be left to the opponent, what he might be trying to do etc. There is strategy involved in that as well. Because you can utilize all kinds of information, if the opponent happens to reveal a card he holds by accident, he cannot ask you to erase it from your memory, simply because no one is to say you couldn't have figured it out on your own with the available information, and you can call that card. Of course if you tried to get that information yourself in any way you did cheat and you will get dq'd but if it was handed to you, exactly because your strategy cannot be asked to be hindered based on a mistake the opponent made, it can be used unless the judge of course specifically says otherwise, although a judge should find a way to amend the situation in that case. If anyone is at fault it would be your opponent as he has the responsibility to keep his private information private as I will explain below.

Issue 4
Fourth issue is revealing. If all legal copies of the called card cannot be accounted for using public information at the moment after Mind Crush's resolution you get to verify the opponent's HAND. First of all let's start with basic examples. You call Pot of Greed. Obviously the opponent does not have that in his hand in the advanced format. The legal copies of the card are 0, and since the opponent cannot have any in his hand in any case you do not get to check. You call Mirror Force, the opponent indeed had said mirror force (got it with duality or something) and discards it to the graveyard. At the moment you can see the only legal copy of mirror force in the graveyard, the opponent cannot have another in hand and you cannot check to verify. If said mirror force can be seen banished face up and you called mirror force anyways, the opponent discards nothing and you do not get to check hand again since the card can be accounted for. If you called Effect Veiler and the opponent discarded 2 of them, there is still one effect veiler missing, that could either be in his deck or not in the deck at all. In any case you get to check his hand to verify there is no veiler there. If you called effect veiler and there was no veiler in the opponent's hand then you check to verify the opponent is telling the truth before you discard one random card yourself. 3 + 1 issues that come up from this here. First is you cannot ask someone else to verify instead of the opponent even if that is a judge, a judge cannot interrupt the normal flow of the game, it is your opponent that has to verify and no one else. Second is that you show the hand and only the hand. It doesnt matter if you have the other legal copies in deck/side-deck, you are not allowed to show them instead and you do not have the right to show them at all. The card says hand so you show hand, that is the only thing the rule allows you to show. Having your hand/deck/side-deck/extra-deck hidden from your opponent is not only your right, it is also your responsibility. For example playing with your extra deck face-up revealing the top card of your extra deck can earn you a warning as a precedural error. Of course no one blames you if your cards fall by accident, but if you showed them intentionally you are in the wrong. If you showed them intentionally to gain an unfair advantage somehow by manipulating your opponent's plays you are probably getting a dq for cheating btw. The last of our issues is that actually the opponent has the right to ask you to verify, verification is in all card effects a right of the opponent, you don't have to do it if he doesn't ask. The +1 issue that doesnt really concern us when playing DN is the intent of the rule, you show long enough for the opponent to get that no other legal copies exist in the hand. If all your cards are green and he called a monster you obviously dont have it so a flash would do. If he called a monster and they are all monsters then he should check that the cards are not the said monster, naturally that would let him know what they all are but it cant be helped. If the opponent has actual issues with his eyesight or other issues that would hinder him obviously he would either need longer or would need to get verification in another way.

Issue 5
Fifth issue is about pro plays. Your opponent is in his turn for a bit now, no action has happened, you don't respond to anything, its one of those times where one is thinking in his main phase what he will do. At this point the player goes through his graveyard repeatedly. You look at his graveyard and see 3 DARKs. At that point you get the epiphany to use your set Mind Crush and call Dark Armed Dragon, maybe correctly, maybe not. A pro play? Well, what I know is it is a possibly illegal play. As noted above there may be times when the turn player has no reason to pass his priority for the first time in the draw phase, but at the same time there are times when he just wants to skip in his main phase. Now in phases like the draw phase, standby phase or end phase you can assume the player just passes priority, but once the turn player enters his main phase things get a bit more special. Whenever you enter a phase or step the turn player has general priority for that phase/step, meaning he can do any legal action of that phase/step. During the main phases as you know you have quite a few freedoms, the most in the game. Summoning, activating spell speed 1 cards, setting and of course activating spell speed 2 or higher effects. That is to say, at the start of the main phase there is absolutely no reason to pass priority unless you have absolutely no play and want to end your turn or some other weird occurance, and naturally if you are going through your grave so much chances are you aren't going to pass. That means that even if the opponent has that DAD he does have priority to actually summon it first thing in the main phase. If he chooses some other action like activating a spell or a monster effect or setting a card then you can respond with your mind crush before he can summon DAD but not while the opponent has general priority. Now you may see a contradiction, back in the MST case I said the turn player would remain in the draw phase if he had no reason to leave, now I say he is in the main phase even though he took no other action, so what is the difference here? First of all this too is a sensitive subject, one judge may rule it like this, another may rule it in another way, but the point followed here is that a player would not be misusing his own rights unless hinted otherwise and that rules are not for players to gain unfair advantage off of them, you follow what is the proper way to play. In the MST vs Dustshoot case the player had an action which could be performed first thing in his turn, he maintains his rights and does so, in this case the player strategizes on a play only able to be performed in the main phase, he does not need to remain in the draw phase or standby phase but in a phase with more rights, which is the main phase. The way to tell here is once again intent. You might ask how are you to know the intent of the opponent. Well in this case it is quite convenient. If he goes ahead and summons a monster first thing in the turn then he was in his main phase anyway, whether you knew or not its the same end result, monster is on the field, if he activates an MST or any other spell speed 2 first he might as well be anywhere, and you get your chance to activate your mind crush too.

Issue 6
Last issue involves mostly strategy but it also explains said situation. It is the situation when you call a card that can be immidiatelly chained to Mind Crush from the hand, such a quick play spell card with activation requirements met or something like a D.D. Crow and similar monsters. First of all remember that in all cases where you call the name of a card you do so at activation, naturally mind crush is the same, so if the opponent is able to chain said card, he can do it and it will create the following situation:
Mind Crush calling Mystical Space Typhoon is Chain Link 1
Mystical Space Typhoon targetting random card is Chain Link 2 (that was the only Mystical Space Typhoon in hand)

Resolve backwards

Mystical Space Typhoon destroys its target
Mind Crush forces the opponent to discard all copies of Mystical Space Typhoon. As the card was played, the turn player reveals his hand to have no other copies of Mystical Space Typhoon so Mind Crush's negative effect kicks in and the controlling player has to discard one random card.

Did you get what I'm trying to say? It doesnt matter if the card was there at activation, if the card is not there at resolution you cannot change what you called and the opponent discards nothing while you discard one card, so don't call cards that can be immidiatelly chained, and if it happens to you remember to chain.

Game Mechanics and DN
This will be a shorter one. In the second case of Trap Dustshoot one may say, if the DN indicator says Draw Phase then the player is in the draw phase, if it says Main Phase he's in the main phase, easily solving the problem. That is a wrong way to think. DN indicators are there simply to aid us but have little to no bearing on the rules of the game. The only thing that is valid is communications between the 2 players, you are still playing against a human so it is vital and it is the most accurate way to play. For example, a phase wont change until both players agree to it, however DN has no such function, if the turn player switches phases then the opponent has no say to it. That does not mean the rule is erased, if the turn player moves to his battle phase arbitarily and the non-turn player wants to stay in the main phase then play remains in the main phase, regardless of the option to attack appearing. Whether the player used the "normal summon" or the "special summon" option on DN doesn't mean sh*t until the player himself somehow verifies which one it is, if he used "special summon" and when asked he says "normal summon" it's a normal summon. Ending the turn is similar, simply pressing a button is not the same as ending your turn, as a judge if the player told me he pressed it by habit but wishes to remain in his turn I'd of course rule it as the turn still going on, even though DN does not allow you to take phases back, in real life if you showed the hand sign signaling that your turn ended and immidiatelly decided to take it back apologizing then you'd still be in your turn, the only thing that can show a change in the gamestate is player interraction, not buttons. Always communicate properly with your opponent, DN indicators are there to simply aid said player communication, not override it.


That would be all for today, that's Al-Bhed trying to make people play properly.


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Last edited by Al-Bhed on Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:03 am

You mean you chose to make a wall-o-text for this?! Son I am...actually i feel pretty good after that dinner.

Al when you say "a flash" what do you mean. Could I set all my spells or show my opponent my hand, but if I do that it isn't "a flash" he could keep watching it throughout the whole duel as I have no way to stop him!


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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:12 am

Unknown wrote:
You mean you chose to make a wall-o-text for this?! Son I am...actually i feel pretty good after that dinner.

Al when you say "a flash" what do you mean. Could I set all my spells or show my opponent my hand, but if I do that it isn't "a flash" he could keep watching it throughout the whole duel as I have no way to stop him!
You're killing me...


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25 Jun 17, 02:12
J.J. Knight: Every homebrew, at least the good ones, are made by people who've played the game for a few years.

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marthbeatsfalco: nope, there are 5 distinct and significant angles

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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:14 am

I bet my encounter with a lucky nub inspired you to write this...

I'M FAMOUS!


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Amethyst777 said:Things activate in reverse order. Thus, bottomless targets grannel before he hits the field, and thus before his effect activates (gaining attack). People told me DN was dumb. But jegus.

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Amethyst777 said: I just realized something. The problem with playing a children's card game: You're bound to encounter children, 90% of which are squalling moronic retards with arrogance issues.



^Words of a true close minded moronic ignorant.
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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:15 am

Umm....explain? Me don't know what you say.


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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:19 am

A flash unknown, a quick showing, I flash my hand, show it for half a sec and take it back, I flash my badge, flip it, show, take it back on the move, open the trenchcoat quickly and then close to flash your- waaaaait a sec


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25 Jun 17, 02:12
J.J. Knight: Every homebrew, at least the good ones, are made by people who've played the game for a few years.

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marthbeatsfalco: nope, there are 5 distinct and significant angles

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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:22 pm

Yes but I can't do that on DN.


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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:25 pm

Unknown wrote:
Yes but I can't do that on DN.
If only I had mentioned that it doesn't concern DN in the article I guess...
The article you are asking about wrote:
...
The +1 issue that doesnt really concern us when playing DN is the intent of the rule, you show long enough for the opponent to get that no other legal copies exist in the hand. ...


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25 Jun 17, 02:12
J.J. Knight: Every homebrew, at least the good ones, are made by people who've played the game for a few years.

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marthbeatsfalco: nope, there are 5 distinct and significant angles

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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:31 pm

Oh sorry Al......that's why I should re-read more.


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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:34 pm

Holy...I mean...What the...No.....BULLSH-- O.O
Wall-o-Text.
And Al-Bhed. Minako. You have no right to ban me smile


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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:42 pm

99nour wrote:
Holy...I mean...What the...No.....BULLSH-- O.O
Wall-o-Text.
And Al-Bhed. Minako. You have no right to ban me smile
If it's about rights minako does not have them as he is not staff, but if you go through rules class 1-1 and class 1-6 and through your posts up to now you'd see that you are not exactly on the right here http://www.worldduelingacademy.com/t1-forum-rules

Yes it is a wall of text but I also put a lot of work in it exactly because it is like that, please respect that much and don't meaninglessly point out every time the volume of the writing, once is funny, twice is funny, you do it everytime you can as if you have nothing else to say and it's getting annoying, while also considering the number of times you repeated it it is also spam.


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J.J. Knight: Every homebrew, at least the good ones, are made by people who've played the game for a few years.

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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:46 pm

Sorry ^^


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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:31 am

Wise words written by a wise yugioh player= Wall-0-Text. This is what I am confused about... in DN mechanics if the player draws during the draw phase and just straight up summons (Seeing as how some people don't change the phases that is displayed on DN.) Should I just say "On the draw phase" since the pass there turns priority at there draw phase?

In real life mechanics how do you work that too? Do you just ask.. "Do you pass your Draw Phases turn priority?" Which may point out obviously something ups so they may play something then.


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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:01 am

It's usually assumptions, you simply assume the opponent is making proper use of his rights and the game is being conducted properly. As I said naturally after entering your turn, except from rare cases like mst etc. you'd just want to skip in your main phase, so you assume the opponent is skipping there. Even though it would be proper to ask before exiting any phase thus hinting the pass of priority, it does not happen so it's a matter of time irl. If the player wishes to stay in his draw phase and use MST then he'd usually do it fast, if he wishes to think about it before doing it and take a while he should state he is staying in the start of his draw phase, for example saying the moment his turn begins or before he draws "Don't activate anything, thinking", if it is about DN and you want to activate the MST just say before pressing the "end turn" button that's flashing "don't activate anything at the start of my turn, I retain priority" or something along those lines. If you just draw it then, then you'd better do some quick thinking. As far as the main phase is concerned, if the player is taking too long, assume he is using his rights properly and that you are in the main phase.

Naturally to stop a player from activating something at the start of the turn is easier IRL when you can signal the opponent in an instant instead of typing. Unfortunatelly for ease of play we have invented such shortcuts in the game as assuming a player passes his priority a lot of times in the turn without hinted about it. Technically speaking and close to the rules you should mention passing priority every time it happens but we know that is impossible so we come into real issues. Because we cant be perfect and because we use shortcuts, problems will always arise, even if you do the game properly the situation will come up a couple of times and a judge will be requiered to help, there is no foolproof way to avoid that, only preventive meassures that just raise the chances the game runs smoothly. And in DN because we communicate slower more issues will arise, players should be in constant communication and the internet hinders that, it cannot be helped, because it is slow and because we communicate less, sh*t will happen unfortunatelly.

You are not alone in the game, it's played by 2, and because it is played by 2, both players at any time have the responsibility for its proper conduct. The reason we assume we will have issues is because we assume the opponent will lie and cheat. If we assumed both players followed the spirit of sportmanship, wished to play the game properly, just have fun and not be at each other's throats the solution would be simple, just ask the opponent whether he had the intent to activate his MST, if we assume he answers honestly then he would either say "no I had no such intent, go ahead", or "yes, I wished to retain my priority in the start of the turn so please flip your dustshoot back down", which assuming both players were honest, you would accept, so the simple solution to all issues would be for everyone to try and play the game properly, in that case judges would be unneccessary, and I know it does sound weird but at each other's throats is no way to play a game, if both players trust each other there are no problems. Another solution to all those issues would be to assume at all times the opponent is making full use of his rights and is not stupid, preying on the opponent's lack of knowledge in no way does indicate "skill" on your part, if the opponent uses his rights in the wrong way show him what he did wrong and allow him to do the right move, that's when the game would be at its best, a good and intense game that pushes you and has both players stretching the game itself to its limits with both parts making the best possible moves they can make, is more fun in my opinion than a victory over someone with a bunch of mistakes whether you win or lose in the end of said game.


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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:11 pm

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preying on the opponent's lack of knowledge in no way does indicate "skill" on your part, if the opponent uses his rights in the wrong way show him what he did wrong and allow him to do the right move, that's when the game would be at its best, a good and intense game that pushes you and has both players stretching the game itself to its limits with both parts making the best possible moves they can make, is more fun in my opinion than a victory over someone with a bunch of mistakes whether you win or lose in the end of said game.


I couldn't stress enough how much I agree with that >.> I absolutely hate rulesharks on DN who get mad when you make a dumb move and want to take it back. I've even had people who wouldn't let me take back my choice from pot of duality, even though I didn't even shuffle the deck yet. Some people are really just in it to win it, and I'm not sure why they even play the game on DN at that point. It doesn't help them test their decks to their full potential, doesn't better them as players since they wouldn't be put into more complicated situations, and most of all it gives them bad rep. No one likes playing/talking to a-holes.

Sorry if this was a little off-topic, kind of a mini-rant. It applies a bit to the trap dustshoot on draw phase idea since most people who just want to win would claim I didn't have the intent or some stupid crap. *sigh*
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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:37 am

Why rule sharking is indeed bad, ppl also do the whole "lemme redo that" on purpose. I personally wudn't let you take back a duality choice if u chose it, added it to hand, and I flip mind crush before u shuffle and suddenly decide it was a misclick, I won't let you take it back. The point is you should play CAREFULLY, don't plan on the excuse "mislick" or "can I please redo that" cuz when u do that too much it makes u look like a noob and a dickhead ._.




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Al-Bhed: yep, dark bribe is certainly a +3, and I'll explain how
Al-Bhed: say you have 5 backrows and the opponent tries to heavy you, that would be a -4, then you flip bribe and go -1 in the process, -1 - potential -4 = -1 - (-4)= -1+4 = +3

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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:28 am

LegendaryFrost wrote:
don't plan on the excuse "mislick" or "can I please redo that" cuz when u do that too much it makes u look like a noob and a dickhead ._.

LMAO.

(yeah why not? since lot of people feel like necroposting, i feel like spamming. wohoo).

On-topic now. It depends on the situation, dueling for a competition/dueling for fun.

In a competition, mistakes are to be paid. The other guy will be in his full right to deny your attempt to re-do. After all, it is often said that "We learn from deffeat".

I got sharked countless times, even when missclicking while dueling for fun lol.

Mistakes speak about the player, not being able to focus on the duel, not being able to think about the damn play before executing it (yeh, a lot of people act all baddass playing fast, and when they realize they screwed up sooo bad, they ask for a re-do), being unable to choose or think about the right move in a certain situation. To sumarize, think twice before clicking the mouse buttons when playing competitively LOL.

Mistakes are not "I didn't want to do this" moves, they are what makes a Player less skillfull, they're the result of that Player's inexperience/lack of focus I think, so they're not to be forggiven during a competitive match. If you really want to win something, don't play asleep, or don't play while watching TV...If you commit mistakes while doing so...your problem.

Missclicks exist of course and they're obvious in most situations, but there's always people that claims to have missclicked after 4/5 seconds of executing a move like, seriously?

I allow re-dos only when you can easily tell that the guy missclicked, but I usually shark a bit during competitive duels if the guy does exactly the same.

Sharking will always be a part of Yu-Gi-Oh...get used to it xD.

"Sharking while dueling for fun" guys fail in life though, nuff said.


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Amethyst777 said:Things activate in reverse order. Thus, bottomless targets grannel before he hits the field, and thus before his effect activates (gaining attack). People told me DN was dumb. But jegus.

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Amethyst777 said: I just realized something. The problem with playing a children's card game: You're bound to encounter children, 90% of which are squalling moronic retards with arrogance issues.



^Words of a true close minded moronic ignorant.
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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:31 am

And now for our new show "That Noob Moment!"!!!
The noob moment of today is..what the .-.-.-.-. is sharking?


Awaiting mid-month freedom.

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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:30 am

Most of the times (at least how I encounter them) misclicks don't have as much to do with skill or anything, at least relevant to the game we are playing. If you count the times we click in a duel it is understandable for the cursor to be off in one of those times. And my point of view here is from the real game, the act of clicking does not have enough weight or responsibility behind it to substitute communicating, so as far as DN goes I do believe misclicking should not be taken as seriously to help towards the proper conduct of the game. Of course not to the extend of it being used as an excuse if it isn't, but if you think back more often than not you can tell what was a misclick, set something like a rai-oh, skip to battle phase with no monsters, go to main phase 2 from main phase 1, etc. while in more mistakable cases you can again tell many times based on the circumstances.

Of course actual moves cannot be taken back in competitivelly play, heck if you try it in a tournament and a judge is watching I am not sure you can take back a move even if the opponent concents, that is a different matter entirelly.

rjuto, rule-sharking may be a part of yugioh, but it is also UC-1, and that is not when you are trying to gain an unfair advantage, the regular sharking is UC-1, if you are trying to gain an unfair advantage it's UC-2, just so we remember that no matter how many "pros" say it's the proper thing to do, konami says otherwise and it is still punishable. Of course we are talking about actual sharking, preventing the opponent from cheating you or starting to take back actual moves is not that.

Nour, the regular sharking is more or less asking for the opponent to uphold rules that are of no relevance to the gamestate, or asking for the opponent to receive penalties for things that again do not affect the gamestate in the slightest, or just calling the judge on too many rules when play is not that much affected, for example your opponent uses card destruction and discards 3 copies of snow, now he has to search 3 times and rules state that after a search you search the deck, you try to search all 3 cards and shuffle only once but the opponent insists you shuffle thrice; you changed the order of your opponent's graveyard by 2 cards when searching for monster reborn targets and the opponent demands you get a penalty for changing the order of his graveyard even though he does not run "Question" in his deck, etc.
It is often hard to distinguish between UC-1 and UC-2 Sharking (one is simple rule sharking and the other is cheating, resulting in disqualification) as when rule sharking is done with the intention of gaining an unfair advantage it can be considered cheating but then again it might be slightly relevant to the rules, so unfair is debatable. For example, when you demand the opponent gets a penalty for not placing the monsters properly in the monster card zones (it is not clear in which monster zone it is) while you run no relevant cards, it can be considered UC-2 as it is obviously to gain an unfair advantage and it does not affect the gamestate, but most judges will shrug it off and just give a warning for UC-1 the first time refusing to get more into the matter, while of course if it is repeated after the warning it can be upgraded to UC-2.

rjuto wrote:
Missclicks exist of course and they're obvious in most situations, but there's always people that claims to have missclicked after 4/5 seconds of executing a move like, seriously?
ikr, how the hell did they manage to realize, type and post in just 0.8 seconds, something is obviously not right!


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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:14 am

Al-Bhed wrote:
rjuto wrote:
Missclicks exist of course and they're obvious in most situations, but there's always people that claims to have missclicked after 4/5 seconds of executing a move like, seriously?

ikr, how the hell did they manage to realize, type and post in just 0.8 seconds, something is obviously not right!

Not necesary, just re-do without even typping, but at least re-do fast >_>.

Anyways, as I said, I don't ruleshark people who doesn't RS me. Dicks will always be dicks, so if I encounter one, I'll pay them with the same coin =D

And ofc missclicks doesn't have to do anything with skill, AN ACTUAL missclick doesn't...

AAAND I'm obviously speaking of DN, I don't even play IRL so...DN Sharking :D


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Amethyst777 said:Things activate in reverse order. Thus, bottomless targets grannel before he hits the field, and thus before his effect activates (gaining attack). People told me DN was dumb. But jegus.

Quote :
Amethyst777 said: I just realized something. The problem with playing a children's card game: You're bound to encounter children, 90% of which are squalling moronic retards with arrogance issues.



^Words of a true close minded moronic ignorant.
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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:30 pm

LegendaryFrost wrote:
Why rule sharking is indeed bad, ppl also do the whole "lemme redo that" on purpose. I personally wudn't let you take back a duality choice if u chose it, added it to hand, and I flip mind crush before u shuffle and suddenly decide it was a misclick, I won't let you take it back. The point is you should play CAREFULLY, don't plan on the excuse "mislick" or "can I please redo that" cuz when u do that too much it makes u look like a noob and a dickhead ._.

If you flipped mind crush before I shuffled, then you didn't even let pot of duality resolve yet, and that would be me rulesharking back. If you are playing a card that fast without letting me think a little I'd consider that pressuring and just plain dickish rather than me redoing something too many times.

Did we also miss the part where I mentioned dueling on DN? The only time DN is serious play is when its an academy tourney/war/testing in my opinion. Are we really that worried about "if I lose, my rating goes down!" That's stupid and will get someone no where in life. If they are that worried about reputation, go out and play regionals/nationals or become a yugituber. DN isn't the way to go.

Misclicks can happen more than some people think too. I'm used to a mouse, but mine recently broke so I'm stuck using the mouse pad on my laptop. It's actually really junky and is starting to die out on me too(its still under waranty, I'm gonna b**** if it stops working >.>). I literally did a sequence of misclicks in a row becuase the mouse pad wouldn't move right and I couldn't even click the chat box to explain to him what was going on. they called an admin and started raging before it started to work again, and even after that they obviously didn't believe my mouse pad screwed me over >.>

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PostSubject: Re: Crush, Dustshoot and indications   Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:16 am

Update here on revealing, that is relevant more relevant with Reborn Tengu than Mind Crush, but still.
I found out and verified at the judge forum that a relevant question was "recently" answered by R&D and now it is legal to reveal your hand in order to avoid revealing your deck and that it will be included in the next policy documents.
http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=23808128&postcount=21

The article will be edited on that part as the rules changed.


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